The ANC had a delegates conference, basically ANC people in exile — a few from underground in South Africa — in a small town called Kabwe in central Zambia. And we were surrounded by Zambian troops, in case commandos from the apartheid government regime came to take us all out and destroy us. We were discussing a future democracy in South Africa and fundamental rights for everybody. But in particular, we were discussing what to do with captives who’d been sent to destroy us and kill us, and should it be possible to use what were called — euphemistically called — intensive methods of interrogation. And one by one, I still remember so strongly the delegates coming. Some of them were in Umkhonto we Sizwe, the armed wing of the ANC, young people, and saying, “No. We don’t use torture whatever the circumstances, whoever the enemy is, whatever the dangers, because we’re not like that. We are fighting for life. How can we be against life and disrespect the human personality even of those sent to kill us and destroy us?” I felt so proud. As a lawyer I felt, you know, we lawyers, we speak about rule of law and no torture, and it’s easy for us in our relatively comfortable lives. These were people risking danger every day in their work and their lives — from very, very poor backgrounds — insisting on those core elements that kept us together as an organization. We didn’t want to become like the others.